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Thread: North Korean ice hockey

  1. #101
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    North Korea National Sport Festival

    December 6. 2010 Juch 99



    Winter Sports Games Held


    Pyongyang, December 6 - Winter sports games took place at the Ice Rink in Pyongyang as part of the National Sports Festival celebrating the 65th anniversary of the Workers' Party of Korea.

    In the ice hockey event drawing five men's and five women's teams, the Taesongsan team won the men's title and the Jangjasan team the women's title.

    Greetings,
    Rowan

  2. #102
    IHF Staff Davide's Avatar
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    news about national league?

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davide View Post
    news about national league?
    Any news at all out of North Korea is a bit of good luck.
    Don't get greedy

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by rowan View Post
    December 6. 2010 Juch 99



    Winter Sports Games Held


    Pyongyang, December 6 - Winter sports games took place at the Ice Rink in Pyongyang as part of the National Sports Festival celebrating the 65th anniversary of the Workers' Party of Korea.

    In the ice hockey event drawing five men's and five women's teams, the Taesongsan team won the men's title and the Jangjasan team the women's title.

    Greetings,
    Rowan
    Any pics/video of it?

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceHockeyRULEZ View Post
    Any pics/video of it?
    tons. but he doesnt feel like posting any

  6. #106
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    DPRK withdraws all teams...

    http://www.iihf.com/home-of-hockey/n...html?tx_ttnews[backPid]=955&cHash=68420eb8c0

  7. #107
    IHF Member RiaRiaHungaria's Avatar
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    Oh, boo. :(

  8. #108
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    the IIHF should ban the DPRK for the rest of this Century. It's always the same game with this guys.

    They can now invite Armenia to play a lot of friendly games....
    Cheers, Franco

  9. #109
    IHF Staff Graham's Avatar
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    I would suggest that teams must post a bond at the end of each season to guarantee their participation in all events the following year. That way, we won't have these last minute pull outs.

    Graham.
    "It's very hard to talk quantum using a language originally designed to tell other monkeys where the ripe fruit is."
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  10. #110
    IHF Member RiaRiaHungaria's Avatar
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    I don't see how either of those ideas are constructive.

    Neither is a team not turning up, but then not having money isn't something the Federation can do much about. I think relegation is punishment enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RiaRiaHungaria View Post
    I don't see how either of those ideas are constructive.

    Neither is a team not turning up, but then not having money isn't something the Federation can do much about. I think relegation is punishment enough.
    not agree. Or, do you mean, they found out in the last two weeks, that they've not enough money? This is only "political reason", as usual for DPRK. Why he have not to say the truth?

    By the way, of course, my idea is not constructive.....
    Cheers, Franco

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franco View Post
    not agree. Or, do you mean, they found out in the last two weeks, that they've not enough money? This is only "political reason", as usual for DPRK. Why he have not to say the truth?

    By the way, of course, my idea is not constructive.....
    I'd have to agree with Graham's bond idea and Franco's assessment. They did this just in 2007 so there should at least be a fine or two-year ban as assessed to Armenia when they had visa issues and withdrew in 2003 and 2007.
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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trim View Post
    I'd have to agree with Graham's bond idea and Franco's assessment. They did this just in 2007 so there should at least be a fine or two-year ban as assessed to Armenia when they had visa issues and withdrew in 2003 and 2007.
    ^ This.

    Considering that their reasons were very clearly political in 2007, and this year is just a failure on their part. This kind of last minute BS requires discipline of the nation, whether in the form of a fine or a ban.

    Japan has an excuse, as their country is in a really bad way. North Korea is not a first-time offender however, and leniency should not be extended here.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franco View Post
    Or, do you mean, they found out in the last two weeks, that they've not enough money?
    Exactly, and the Australian national team have said exactly the same thing on their Facebook wall.

    I understand that financially things change. But, announcing it 7 days before their first game is inexcusable without some unforeseen disaster along the scale of Japan's. The bond would protect the sport from these last minute withdrawals as, in effect, you'd be asking the teams to pay for their participation the previous May. Costs wouldn't change, but awareness of team's not having the funds to compete would be understood at the appropriate time.

    Graham.
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  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    Exactly, and the Australian national team have said exactly the same thing on their Facebook wall.

    I understand that financially things change. But, announcing it 7 days before their first game is inexcusable without some unforeseen disaster along the scale of Japan's. The bond would protect the sport from these last minute withdrawals as, in effect, you'd be asking the teams to pay for their participation the previous May. Costs wouldn't change, but awareness of team's not having the funds to compete would be understood at the appropriate time.

    Graham.
    This would also allow the IIHF time to organise a qualification or appoint a team to promote into the vacant spot.
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    the worst on the "DPRK politic" is, that of course all the players (women and men) are now the assh**, because, they cannot play..... this makes me angry. Fu** politic.....

    And of course, a ban for some years is completely contrary for all players. What can they do against this? Nothing....

    To be fair...... who in DPRK is interested, if they can play, or not..... I do not think so, that in the DPRK Medias is one word about the ice hockey NT.... so, (except all the players), nobody know that - nobody bother this..... if they play Div. III or IV..... who care's DPRK??

    Sorry for my hard words..... I do not see any reason, to beat around the bush (not George W.... that's another story....). We, our Forum, can anyway not offer any solution...
    Cheers, Franco

  17. #117
    IHF Staff Graham's Avatar
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    The concern is that we've run out of developed Western countries to join the IIHF. The next batch of new members are likely to be of questionable politics and questionable long-term financial stability. A measure needs to be found to protect the IIHF and the host nations from what is likely to become an increasingly common problem.

    Graham.
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  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steigs View Post
    ^ This.

    Considering that their reasons were very clearly political in 2007, and this year is just a failure on their part. This kind of last minute BS requires discipline of the nation, whether in the form of a fine or a ban.

    Japan has an excuse, as their country is in a really bad way. North Korea is not a first-time offender however, and leniency should not be extended here.
    !!!! I think you'll find that DPRK is in a much worse state than Japan. At least their problems are temporary.

    Geoff

  19. #119
    IHF Member RiaRiaHungaria's Avatar
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    What Geoff said.

    Punishing DPRK beyond the auto-relegation seems to me counterproductive... I see a possible parallel here to the situation in Greece with the NT/Iptameni and the owner. Except then the IIHF is the owner, and DPRK Iptameni: "You'll punish us even more, because we couldn't go? Fine, screw you guys then", and they simply withdraw completely.

    What Graham sais is another point, too. Why not just rebrand hockey as "The G20's game!" Developing countries need not apply, you're all too unstable and might inconvenience us!

    EDIT: Come to think of it, if we're talking about Greece... how come nobody was clamouring for the Greeks to get suspended for the rest of the century after bailing on hosting with short notice?
    Last edited by RiaRiaHungaria; 29-03-2011 at 15:47.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by RiaRiaHungaria View Post
    What Geoff said.

    Punishing DPRK beyond the auto-relegation seems to me counterproductive... I see a possible parallel here to the situation in Greece with the NT/Iptameni and the owner. Except then the IIHF is the owner, and DPRK Iptameni: "You'll punish us even more, because we couldn't go? Fine, screw you guys then", and they simply withdraw completely.

    What Graham sais is another point, too. Why not just rebrand hockey as "The G20's game!" Developing countries need not apply, you're all too unstable and might inconvenience us!

    EDIT: Come to think of it, if we're talking about Greece... how come nobody was clamouring for the Greeks to get suspended for the rest of the century after bailing on hosting with short notice?
    well agree/not agree half/half

    But I do not think, you can comparing Greece (nor Turkey.....) with the DPRK. I know, what you mean, but everything is different for this two (three) countries. In Greece and Turkey it is more the "Mafia" the problem. But the people in GRE and TUR are free, they can say, whatever the wanna say. In the DPRK is ONE who is doing EVEYTHING (thinking, speaking...).... The "case Greece" is - for me - a completely other story. Even if Greece cancelled the Tournament very short...
    Cheers, Franco

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffH View Post
    !!!! I think you'll find that DPRK is in a much worse state than Japan. At least their problems are temporary.

    Geoff
    oh, oh, oh....... I do not think so, that we can comparing JAP with the DPRK. Completely different. Agree with you GeoffH.

    And what happens in JAP actual, nobody can have any plan now. And actual, "ice hockey" is definitelly not the problem No. 1 now
    Cheers, Franco

  22. #122
    IHF Staff Graham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RiaRiaHungaria View Post
    Punishing DPRK beyond the auto-relegation seems to me counterproductive...
    I think that there has to be an additional punishment. After all, for the men, they were already the bottom seeds after being relegated in 2009. As such, they were already favourites for the drop this year. Only relegating them with no additional punishment could set a bad precedent where teams that strongly believe that they are going to be relegated anyway decide not to spend the $100k to get it confirmed.

    I understand that there has been a fine of £17000 set to cover both teams. I think that is appropriate. It is enough to make North Korea, and other countries, understand that decisions to withdraw can't be taken lightly but won't kill them the same way that a suspension would.

    I also don't buy the Japan comparison. The fact that Japan's status is temporary is why it is acceptable for them. It was completely unpredictable and therefore allows for severe responses. North Korea's economy didn't take a huge downturn in the past couple of weeks. They've been in this state for decades which makes the decision to pull out with 7 days to go inexcusable. The punishment should be set for the timing rather than the act.

    Graham.
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  23. #123
    IHF Member RiaRiaHungaria's Avatar
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    While I see your point, Graham, I'm not sure I can completely agree. But then, I'm not the one making the decision, so that's irrelevant. :)

    But one thing I will comment on - seedings are often irrelevant, results count.

    And in DPRK's case, I can honestly picture the teams and the Federation all preparing to go, and then being told in the last minute that they won't be permitted to go. Punishing them for a political decision well out of their hands is, as I said, I believe counterproductive. It's not their fault that they're from where they're from!

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    Quote Originally Posted by RiaRiaHungaria View Post
    While I see your point, Graham, I'm not sure I can completely agree. But then, I'm not the one making the decision, so that's irrelevant. :)

    But one thing I will comment on - seedings are often irrelevant, results count.

    And in DPRK's case, I can honestly picture the teams and the Federation all preparing to go, and then being told in the last minute that they won't be permitted to go. Punishing them for a political decision well out of their hands is, as I said, I believe counterproductive. It's not their fault that they're from where they're from!
    here I'm absolutelly agree.... that's why I wrote, the are always the players.
    Cheers, Franco

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by RiaRiaHungaria View Post
    And in DPRK's case, I can honestly picture the teams and the Federation all preparing to go, and then being told in the last minute that they won't be permitted to go. Punishing them for a political decision well out of their hands is, as I said, I believe counterproductive. It's not their fault that they're from where they're from!
    But, if this was Denmark stating that they could no longer afford to go to Caen, no one would be as forgiving. So what do you do? Have two sets of rules; one for western countries and one for communist/dictatorship countries? Best of luck getting that rule change through!

    The unfortunate situation for North Koreans isn't just that they get told with a week to go that they aren't going to France or Australia. It's a much bigger problem than that. But, they need to enter World Championships as equals for which they have a right to be treated as equals and no more or no less. And that includes tolerance towards infringements.

    Graham.
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  26. #126
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    The equals bit: I don't disagree, but. Greece can be an exception, because of their "mafia" running the Federation? (That's just an example, I'm not taking aim specifically at Greece). Either give exceptions for everybody, or for nobody.

    Greece bailed on hosting, they were given no punishment. If this were, say, Bulgaria or Luxembourg who bailed at the last moment, I somehow doubt anyone would be arguing so hard for punishment above automatic relegation...

  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by RiaRiaHungaria View Post
    Greece bailed on hosting, they were given no punishment. If this were, say, Bulgaria or Luxembourg who bailed at the last moment, I somehow doubt anyone would be arguing so hard for punishment above automatic relegation...
    Initially, Greece were thrown out of World Championship competition. However, after the tournaments were announced, the United Arab Emirates withdrew almost immediately due to Arab League politics involving Israel. Fortunately, Greece was reinstated so I could see where they would have escaped punishment.

    I think that is where the difference lies between DPRK and UAE. The Emirates withdrew in the spring/summer of 2010 while for the second time in four years, DPRK pulled out with just a week to go. The UAE was dealing with their Israeli situation, but in 2007, DPRK were placed in a group hosted by their southern brothers and didn't withdraw until it was far too late. Did they try to get placed in the other group during the Congress? We don't know. What we know is that they didn't pull out of the Championships until they should have crossed the border. Perhaps there was a question towards the south giving the northern players visas, that was never mentioned, but if the withdrawal was entirely on the DPR side then it would have to be viewed as political (as they've arrived to Mexico, Luxembourg, Armenia, etc.)
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  28. #128
    IHF Staff Steigs's Avatar
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    Japan is in a state of national mourning, and dealing with a national disaster where most if not all players are affected by the disaster. To say that they should be disciplined harder than North Korea is offensive to me.

    DPR Korea bailed, as Trim pointed out, with a week to go a few years back for what is OBVIOUSLY a political issue. What that issue is exactly was never stated, but the one reasonable rumour to come out at the time was a fear that the players from the North would attempt to defect or disappear in the ROK.
    Now, with a week to go, they pull out again, claiming financial issues? Fine. If their financial situation is so bad let them take a year off from competition while they get themselves back on a solid footing. Repeat offenders. Or maybe we should just allow Armenia to return as well without any issues?

  29. #129
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    Trim #127
    Steigs #128

    very good statemens guys! I'm absolutelly, to 100%, agree with you. No more to say to this debatte!!
    Cheers, Franco

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    New rink built in November in East Pyongyang. Looks nice

  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Helix- View Post


    New rink built in November in East Pyongyang. Looks nice
    Very nice. Hopefully this means theyll start showing up for tournaments now

  32. #132
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    Nice.

  33. #133
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    North Korea

    Ice Hockey Tournament Held in Pyongyang


    Pyongyang, December 28 (KCNA) -- An ice hockey competition took place at the Ice Rink here from Dec. 12-26, as part of the Osandok Prize Sports Contest.

    The competition was held on a round-robin basis by six men's teams and six women's teams.


    The Pyongyang Railway Bureau Sports Team won the men's title with four wins and one defeat and the Taesongsan Sports Team the women's title with five wins.


    Both teams finished first in the ice hockey events of the 12th People's Games held in October.


    A sports expert told KCNA that the two teams would be defending their domestic champions in a few coming years. The increased goals per match in the recent competition showed that abilities of overall teams have further developed, he said.


    Meanwhile, the Taesongsan Sports Team took the title in the ice figure skating event of the contest and the Jangsan Sports Team in the short-track speed skating event.

    Greetings,
    Rowan

  34. #134
    IHF Staff Davide's Avatar
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    this is not the domestic league right?

    Quote Originally Posted by rowan View Post
    Ice Hockey Tournament Held in Pyongyang


    Pyongyang, December 28 (KCNA) -- An ice hockey competition took place at the Ice Rink here from Dec. 12-26, as part of the Osandok Prize Sports Contest.

    The competition was held on a round-robin basis by six men's teams and six women's teams.


    The Pyongyang Railway Bureau Sports Team won the men's title with four wins and one defeat and the Taesongsan Sports Team the women's title with five wins.


    Both teams finished first in the ice hockey events of the 12th People's Games held in October.


    A sports expert told KCNA that the two teams would be defending their domestic champions in a few coming years. The increased goals per match in the recent competition showed that abilities of overall teams have further developed, he said.


    Meanwhile, the Taesongsan Sports Team took the title in the ice figure skating event of the contest and the Jangsan Sports Team in the short-track speed skating event.

    Greetings,
    Rowan

  35. #135
    IHF Staff Trim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rowan View Post
    The increased goals per match in the recent competition showed that abilities of overall teams have further developed, he said.
    Sounds like publicocrap translating to "increased goals per match showed that the defense is disorganized and the goaltenders are awful.
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    Regarding the rumors that they (NKorea) want a team in KHL... Of course, everyone laughed about this and rightly so. Yet, I tried to look for some information about North Korean hockey and rationally ponder on such possibility, putting the fact, that it is highly unlikely, aside for a while.

    So, me and my friend discussed this - he said - yes, the NT level is really low and their players aren't good enough (Division III in WC), but why couldn't they make the roster the same way the Donbass (Ukraine) and Dinamo Minsk (Belarus) do in KHL - veeery many foreigners (DM best players were all foreigners, Donbass had only 3-4 regular first-team Ukrainians) and that's that. The team still counts as North Korean, money (just as for Dinamo Riga [my local team in Latvia], Lev, Donbass, Medvescak in KHL) is given by the Russians and go! There are ice rinks in North Korea. Good PR by North Korea and they show Americans how they can cooperate with Russians (this was told by my friend, I am not good at politics)

    The travel - why not - the NT has been to many countries, essentially it is just - you go and play there, then go home. No chance to see the outside world really. Especially if supervised closely. Then I thought about the issue of having both NK and foreign players in the team - regularly together, the NK fears that their citizens would find out about the better living conditions that are there outside NK, so this wouldn't work, right? Being side by side with, say, Czechs, Russians they would find out. [KHL rules - at least 5 locals must be in the team] (by the way, how is it with Americans possibly playing there, would NK allow them in?). The only issue could perhaps arise if S.Korean team would also be in KHL - in 2007 NK team withdrew from WC shortly before the games and no one really doubted it had something to do with SK being the hosts, either it was about SK not willing to let them in or the problem was on NK side, doesn't really matter.

    I am sure there would be foreign players ready to try this thing out just for the sake of it being so unordinary, playing in the 2nd best league in the world and earning good money. But maybe it is just me thinking so.

    They could have trainings in NK, some maybe, say, in Khabarovsk (Amur - KHL team - is located there), some 1000km north from NK; home games surely at NK.

    The crowd at the home games wouldn't even quite understand what is happening - they would just blindly cheer for the team and perceive the players as heroes (yet, would NK like some Czechs, Russians etc. be heroes of the locals?) Away games not an issue - just no quality reporting as it always happens, all the KHL sites are blocked there anyway, so...

    Just tell me what you think of this and don't be too critical - it is just me trying to think how this could POSSIBLY work, just for the sake of fun and interesting blog entry for my site.

  37. #137
    IHF Member Garethw87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ellja View Post
    Regarding the rumors that they (NKorea) want a team in KHL... Of course, everyone laughed about this and rightly so. Yet, I tried to look for some information about North Korean hockey and rationally ponder on such possibility, putting the fact, that it is highly unlikely, aside for a while.

    So, me and my friend discussed this - he said - yes, the NT level is really low and their players aren't good enough (Division III in WC), but why couldn't they make the roster the same way the Donbass (Ukraine) and Dinamo Minsk (Belarus) do in KHL - veeery many foreigners (DM best players were all foreigners, Donbass had only 3-4 regular first-team Ukrainians) and that's that. The team still counts as North Korean, money (just as for Dinamo Riga [my local team in Latvia], Lev, Donbass, Medvescak in KHL) is given by the Russians and go! There are ice rinks in North Korea. Good PR by North Korea and they show Americans how they can cooperate with Russians (this was told by my friend, I am not good at politics)

    The travel - why not - the NT has been to many countries, essentially it is just - you go and play there, then go home. No chance to see the outside world really. Especially if supervised closely. Then I thought about the issue of having both NK and foreign players in the team - regularly together, the NK fears that their citizens would find out about the better living conditions that are there outside NK, so this wouldn't work, right? Being side by side with, say, Czechs, Russians they would find out. [KHL rules - at least 5 locals must be in the team] (by the way, how is it with Americans possibly playing there, would NK allow them in?). The only issue could perhaps arise if S.Korean team would also be in KHL - in 2007 NK team withdrew from WC shortly before the games and no one really doubted it had something to do with SK being the hosts, either it was about SK not willing to let them in or the problem was on NK side, doesn't really matter.

    I am sure there would be foreign players ready to try this thing out just for the sake of it being so unordinary, playing in the 2nd best league in the world and earning good money. But maybe it is just me thinking so.

    They could have trainings in NK, some maybe, say, in Khabarovsk (Amur - KHL team - is located there), some 1000km north from NK; home games surely at NK.

    The crowd at the home games wouldn't even quite understand what is happening - they would just blindly cheer for the team and perceive the players as heroes (yet, would NK like some Czechs, Russians etc. be heroes of the locals?) Away games not an issue - just no quality reporting as it always happens, all the KHL sites are blocked there anyway, so...

    Just tell me what you think of this and don't be too critical - it is just me trying to think how this could POSSIBLY work, just for the sake of fun and interesting blog entry for my site.
    Filling the team with foreign players would be the only way for many years to come, obviously. I'm sure there would be many many players that are willing to try such an experience. You mention 'would they let American players in?' why would they have to? We have Russians, Belorussians, Latvians, Ukrainians, Kazakhs, Finns, Swedes, Canadians - you see my point. Say that they recently let the Harlem Globetrotters basketball team play a game against a local NK team so I don't think it would be a problem. I'd imagine they'd just be supervised when on 'days off' like any tourist to the country is already.

    They have their great ice rink in Pyongyang and as you mentioned the attendances wouldn't be a problem - whether or not they know what was going on!

    Money would come from Russians so thats ok...

    As for players 'running away' or 'seeing how better life is living with Russians, Czechs ect' well you don't see them running away when they are based in Russia to work on logging camps or mining camps. Or when they are using the train into China and Russia presently. I'm sure the players would be looked after and would see no reason to run away. Look at how many North Korean soccer players there are abroad these days. Usually there are 2 or so in the Latvian Soccer league each year and they seem to be just fine and return him when they have too.

    I'd love to see it but I think it wouldn't look the best for the KHL - maybe it'd look abit too comical at present. I think its more likely a South Korean team/Japanese team would be next. But then with the whole 'United Europe' or whatever this master plan league is called we might not see any asian teams at all.
    Dinamo Riga, Manchester Storm

  38. #138
    IHF Member Conesy's Avatar
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    This was posted almost two weeks ago on Deadsping, but it's pretty fascinating: http://deadspin.com/my-week-with-the...team-512306903
    Twitter: @CSmeeth

  39. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conesy View Post
    This was posted almost two weeks ago on Deadsping, but it's pretty fascinating: http://deadspin.com/my-week-with-the...team-512306903
    I like how the players say Cape Town reminds them of Pyongyang.

    I don't think players defecting on away trips would be a problem for a North Korean KHL team. American media may paint a terrible picture of North Korea, and while it is no doubt a more totalitarian country than most, there is no reason to believe regular citizens (especially those who would be playing hockey in the KHL for pretty good money) would want to run away and leave their lives behind. As Garethw87 said, this isn't even a problem for all the other North Korean athletes or workers who leave their country regularly.

    Chinese companies have invested a lot of money into North Korea in recent years. I wouldn't be surprised if a sports-loving DPRK government worked out a deal to have a Chinese business fund a KHL team. In fact, Pyongyang might be the most promising market in Asia for the KHL right now.

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    Will the opportunity for South Korea to get a team come after the Winter Olympics in 2018 Pyeongchang. The Olympics should give aboost to the popularity of the game in Korea, giving perfect timing to add a pro team in the KHL. If so a North Korean team would be an issue, as they would refuse to play them. Sadly politics will win against on this one.

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    Thanks for posting the article Conesy, great read! Sport can be a wonderful escape from the big bad world at times.

  42. #142
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    Japanese or South Korean teams in KHL are pretty much zero chance, what with the Asian League operating. China would be the best market for KHL, though they are far too weak on a national skill level to ever have a chance to be competitive... nevermind North Korea.
    And don't think that fans will go to watch a losing team, or cheer them as heroes. Until the level of play increases drastically in North Korea, the KHL dream is just that.

  43. #143
    IHF Staff Davide's Avatar
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    Apparently in december the North Korea League finished, according to a rare news found in the net:

    Four teams of men and women each which proved successful in the first round of league matches played the second round of league matches for final standings.
    Men and women players of the Pyongyang Railway Bureau Sports Team and the Taesongsan Sports Team played good matches through a combination of agile pass and admirable shooting.
    In the men's ice-hockey event players of the Pyongyang Railway Bureau Sports Team came first and players of the Taesongsan Sports Team and the Sports Team of the Ministry of Fisheries second and third.
    In the women's event players of the Taesongsan Sports Team won the title while players of the Sports Team of Kanggye University of Education No. 1 and the Jangjasan Sports Team placed second and third.

  44. #144
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    North Korea hockey League, video - http://www.youtube.com/user/Valdas14...key&shelf_id=7

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