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Thread: European Championship - 1910

  1. #1
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    European Championship - 1910

    Results of matches:
    10.01.1910. Great Britain - Belgium - 1:1.
    Goals: Harold Duden - Freddy Charlier.
    10.01.1910. Switzerland - "Oxford Canadians" - 1:8. (Out of offset)
    Goals: Alfred Mégroz -?
    10.01.1910. Great Britain - Germany - 1:0 (0:0, 1:0).
    Goals: Albert Macklin.
    10.01.1910. Switzerland - Belgium - 0:1.
    Goals: Maurice Deprez.

    11.01.1910. Germany - Belgium - 5:3.
    Goals: Alfred Steinke (2), Werner Glimm, Hans Jakemann, Franz Lange - Étienne Coupez, Fernand de Blommaert, Maurice Deprez.
    11.01.1910. Switzerland - Great Britain - 1:5 (1:0, 0:5).
    Goals: Max Sillig or F. Payot - Albert Macklin (2), Robert Le Cron, Harold Duden, Hugo Stonоr.
    11.01.1910. Germany - "Oxford Canadians" - 0:4. (Out of offset)

    12.01.1910. Belgium - "Oxford Canadians" - 0:6. (Out of offset)
    12.01.1910. Switzerland - Germany - 1:9.
    Goals: Max Sillig - Werner Glimm (3), Charles George Hartley (2), Hans Jakemann (2), Bruno Grauel, Franz Lange.
    • Game between Great Britain and "Oxford Canadians" has not taken place, as Englishmen have refused a meeting, referring on carrying over of time of the beginning of a match on an hour (under the version of the London newspaper "Тimes" because of the traumas received by players).

    Participants:
    Great Britain: Thomas Octave Murdoch Sopwith - Bethune Minet “Peter“ Patton, Robert Le Cron, Harold Herman Duden, Sydney P. Cox, Bevan Charles Cox, Hugo W. Stonоr, Albert N. C. Macklin.
    Germany: Willy Bliesener - Günther Dreyer, Werner Glimm, Bruno Grauel, Charles George Hartley, Emil Jacob, Kutscher, C. M. Lüdecke, Robert Müller, Alfred Steinke, Hans Jakemann, Franz Lange.
    Belgium: Roger Van der Straeten - Maurice Deprez, Étienne Coupez, Paul Loicq, Jean Grimard, Louis De Smeth, Fernand De Smeth, Fernand de Blommaert, Freddy Charlier.
    Switzerland: Alfred Mégroz, Max Sillig, F. Payot, may be - Ewald, Dufour, Bossi, Keller, Masson, ?
    "Oxford Canadians": Gustave Lanctot - John Gilbert Higgins, Ernest Alexander Munro, Howard Robert Lawrence Henry, Arthur Yates, Joseph Daly, Rupert Maxime Rive, Raymond Alban Donald Gillis, Roy Leitch.

    http://statforum.5-games.ru/viewtopic.php?f=203&t=589
    Last edited by Cpt Chief; 06-03-2012 at 06:40.

  2. #2
    IHF Member Bobby Orr's Avatar
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    The goalscorers that you posted have been floating around for a few years.
    But no one has been able to provide a source for the goalscorers.
    Before we have a verified source, it is difficult to view them as "official".

    So what newspaper does it come from ?

  3. #3
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    This is not official. It is compilation of the information from the Internet. For example, rosters of "Oxford" is available in a command photo. Goalscorers from http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mistrov...ím_hokeji_1910.
    This version it is created for discussion, amendments and additions.

  4. #4
    IHF Member Bobby Orr's Avatar
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    Cpt Chief,

    I understand that it is open for discussion. I have done extensive research on this tournament myself.
    The "problem" is that no one has ever been able to provide a newspaper source for the goalscorers,
    where do they come from ? If we don't have a verified source, it is difficult to discuss how accurate
    the information is. I have gone through many newspapers from this time, and some of the players
    mentioned above were not selected for the tournament, this is why it is important to get the original
    source.

  5. #5
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    Bobby Orr! I read many newspapers of that time too. I think, that the exact source of the information does not exist. Share results of your researches.

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    Hello you all!

    Well, I added the goalscores a few years ago to my website, when I got them from a Russian guy called Zaur Antikov. But he said, that they need verification.

    Then, in general: since I have seen stats and "stats" over these years, I have kept saying on my website already before the Russian information, that the stats on the Centennial hockey website are not unmistakable. So, if someone quotes them there, he/she hopefully notices this remark and considers it seriously.

    And now some comparison; the Jan Casteels stats don't include all the Belgium players and the sportkomplett website (in German) don't include all the German players mentioned on the Russian site.

    All the best
    Jukka

  7. #7
    IHF Member Bobby Orr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jukka ruskeeahde View Post
    Hello you all!

    Well, I added the goalscores a few years ago to my website, when I got them from a Russian guy called Zaur Antikov. But he said, that they need verification.

    Then, in general: since I have seen stats and "stats" over these years, I have kept saying on my website already before the Russian information, that the stats on the Centennial hockey website are not unmistakable. So, if someone quotes them there, he/she hopefully notices this remark and considers it seriously.

    And now some comparison; the Jan Casteels stats don't include all the Belgium players and the sportkomplett website (in German) don't include all the German players mentioned on the Russian site.

    All the best
    Jukka

    Jukka,

    I am aware of your site and the fact that you are pointing out that the "website is not unmistakable".
    That's all good, the problem is that unless we have a reliable newspaper source, we should be very
    careful publishing the scorers. Unfortunately the "damage" is already done, and it will be difficult to
    correct it, as this information will continue to float around the internet (and publications as well).

    Maybe Zaur is reading this, but a couple of years ago when I tried to track down the original
    source, Zaur told me that he got it from as I understand it two guys,
    Tibor Nicolescu (Romania) and Rumen Maximov (Bulgaria).

    Zaur specifically told me that from the stats he got in 2008 from them - it turned out that
    only 20-25% of the goalscorers were correct. This was for the World Championships 1930 to 1955.

    Zaur himself believes that only maximum 20% of the goals in EC 1910 are correct,
    and given the research I have done, I am willing to agree that it needs verification.

    Now, I did contact Tibor in five different languages, just to cover my bases, asking him
    where he got his information from, but never recieved an answer, and that is usually
    not a good sign.

    I have a hard time believing that they (the goalscorers) are a complete fabrication, because the player
    names are legitimate, but once again, without a source, we have to be careful.

  8. #8
    IHF Staff Steigs's Avatar
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    Bobby Orr and Jukka, I'm enjoying reading this discussion very much, not so much for the information on the tournament itself but more for just the discussion about reliable sources and their existence (or apparent lack thereof). Of course, information from a century ago would be very difficult to come by, especially with two massive wars in the interim, and it seems natural to me that some information would be lost.

    I do agree with Bobby Orr that in the case where sources are not available one should be careful in posting information. Though you might take great care to point out which information is correct or confirmed and which is not, other people might be lazier and would choose to ignore such warnings, and thus take unconfirmed information as gospel. This could lead to the much more widespread distribution of the incorrect information, making a search for the true information (in this case the actual goal scorers) that much more difficult in the future.

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    Hello you all!

    I decided to add a special note about the scores of the 1910 tournament, trying to make up "the damage".

    Bobby Orr, I have been checking my archives all morning. Since one can never be quite cautious enough. I noticed, that most of the scores between 1930 and 1950 are from other sources. But any corrections with a confirmed source are naturally welcome.

    What it comes to his tournament specifically, even the Swiss and the British, that I asked for information, could only e-mail a few articles. So, once again: the scores are still "in the air tonight", folks!

    All the best
    Jukka

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobby Orr View Post
    Maybe Zaur is reading this, but a couple of years ago when I tried to track down the original
    source, Zaur told me that he got it from as I understand it two guys,
    Tibor Nicolescu (Romania) and Rumen Maximov (Bulgaria).

    Zaur specifically told me that from the stats he got in 2008 from them - it turned out that
    only 20-25% of the goalscorers were correct. This was for the World Championships 1930 to 1955.

    Zaur himself believes that only maximum 20% of the goals in EC 1910 are correct,
    and given the research I have done, I am willing to agree that it needs verification.

    Now, I did contact Tibor in five different languages, just to cover my bases, asking him
    where he got his information from, but never recieved an answer, and that is usually
    not a good sign.

    I have a hard time believing that they (the goalscorers) are a complete fabrication, because the player
    names are legitimate, but once again, without a source, we have to be careful.
    My name is Zaur Antikov.
    I think, that Tibor Nicolescu had incorrect goals of EC 1910.
    I don`t have today goals of EC 1910 from newspapers for 1910 year.
    I don`t have today correct goals of EC 1910.

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