Only three teams in league!

[yardbird]

Only three teams. I see that as a very bad sign for Estonian icehockey. Also bad there's no team in Tallinn.

I visited Estonia for the first time in 2002 and at that point the development of Estonian icehockey was promising. (I even wrote an article in a Swedish magazine about it).

But for the last 5 years, the development seems to have taken a turn in the wrong direction.

Is there anyone who knows why Estonian icehockey has declined the last years and what to do about it? :c075:

[Marc Brunengraber]

Technically, their national team could be disqualified from IIHF competition over this, as IIHF regulations state that a member nation must have, at minimum, a four team league with 16 games per team.

Many of the Division II and Division III countries would be gone from IIHF competition if these rules were strictly enforced by the IIHF; even a few Division I nations - Lithuania, Serbia, Croatia - would be gone.

Thankfully, the IIHF seems to ignore its own rules if enforcing them to the letter would result in barring a country's member ice hockey federation (which is doing the best it can with limited funds, resources and/or interest from its government and/or its public) from participating in IIHF competition.

Just off the top of my head, a strict enforcement of IIHF rules would result in Estonia, Iceland, Spain, Lithuania, Israel, Bulgaria, Serbia, and Croatia being barred. That would not be good for world hockey and would ultimately go against the very reason for the IIHF existing.

Hopefully the IIHF can help these countries build the game in their respective borders - if not monetarily, at least, perhaps, with things such as volunteer teachers/coaches, "how to" manuals to help in building grassroots programs, etc.

[Steigs]

Just off the top of my head, a strict enforcement of IIHF rules would result in Estonia, Iceland, Spain, Lithuania, Israel, Bulgaria, Serbia, and Croatia being barred. That would not be good for world hockey and would ultimately go against the very reason for the IIHF existing.

Scratch Spain from that list, but add Mongolia, South Africa, Luxembourg to the list.

[Marc Brunengraber]

16 games per team for the Spanish League now? In any event, like I said, the IIHF has used its rule that appears several times throughout the by-laws that basically states that the other IIHF rules can be ignored when needed, at the IIHF's discretion, to allow the national programs in struggling hockey countries to continue. And it's a good rule. Without it, the IIHF's membership would shrink by double digits and its efforts to promote ice hockey worldwide would be severely curtailed.

[Steigs]

5 teams in the Spanish league, playing a double home-and-away round robin. 16 per team.

[Marc Brunengraber]

Good news for Spain.

With the countries you noted, that's ten.....and I'm sure there are others.

Anyway, I hope to see them all expand their leagues in terms of number of teams, and games per team.

What happened to Purikad in the Estonian league?

Maybe Lithuania's Energija could compete in this league & the Latvian league if there aren't scheduling conflicts.

[Karsten]

The IIHF Sports Regulations specifically points out that we're dealing with minimum standards that must be fulfilled before a national association can obtain a license to participate in the IIHF championships competition at a given level.

The rules are entry conditions--how to obtain a ticket to enter IIHF competitions--and the rules only apply to the time when a national association apply for a license to a participate. The IIHF does not grant licenses on an annual basis; it's a one-off event. And for this reason it is perfectly possible that member associations at a later stage participate in the IIHF competitions no longer fulfilling the conditions that applied when the got the license.

The rules, which were drawn up in the 90s, are made to prevent any country to enter the IIHF compeitions If the rules were not there, any country could naturalize a few foreign expats and make a team. You need only to have a cursory understanding of IIHF history to understand how often this has happened in the past (cf. also IIHF's eligibility rules which have been tightened since the 90s).

IIHF's minimum standards for entering IIHF competitions (read IHWCs) should be held up against Bylaw §620 which deals with withdrawal from the system: at IIHF's annual congress, each member association that participate in IIHF competitions must confirm their participation in the following season. If they fail to honour their commitment, they will be fined with CHF10,000 - CHF100,000 (depending on the level at which the national team plays). Members that have not paid their fines cannot participate at a later stage. This principle, which is the only IIHF rule dealing with how a member can lose its license, is smoothened with various auxillary rules.

Withdrawal from IIHF competitions are dealt with in another section of IIHF rules, namely bylaw §620. Once in the IIHF competition

Technically, their national team could be disqualified from IIHF competition over this, as IIHF regulations state that a member nation must have, at minimum, a four team league with 16 games per team.

A league is defined as three teams and the minimum requirement is 15 games per team, not 16.

The IIHF is not ignoring its rules, it's just you who don't understand them :c032:

[Marc Brunengraber]

A league is defined as three teams and the minimum requirement is 15 games per team, not 16.

When did it change from 4/16?

In any event, thanks for the clarification. It's a question that has plagued many of us at the forums for a long time.

[yardbird]

What about Lithuania then?

I hate to put Lithuania down, I really wish that they will have success with their ice-hockey but I get the impression that they have some serious problems.

Did they actually finish the championships last year or was Energija simply declared champions again?

[Karsten]

What about Lithuania then?

I hate to put Lithuania down, I really wish that they will have success with their ice-hockey but I get the impression that they have some serious problems.

Did they actually finish the championships last year or was Energija simply declared champions again?

First of all, the Lithuanian hockey association has serious problems with its website. Makes a lot of efforts of writing on Lithuanians playing abroad but provide very little information about the Lithuanian league. And no explanations given about the games not played (whether they were forfeited or not, final table, stats etc etc.).

Second, with the very limited information I have, it appears to be that the setup of the league suffered from some serious defects. Why was the Russian team Pioner Kaliningrad allowed into the league? The club sabotaged the league by only playing two games (vs Sporto Centras and Poseidoneas - don't even have the results) and why was Poseidon allowed to play in the best group A? The team iced a U18 team. Why not merge group A and B and set up provisions that make sure that the games are played.

It appears to me that the problem is not lack of teams - the problem has to be found elsewhere.

[nutbar]

I was looking at the B Pool results from 1998; Estonia did have some serious promise back then.

Estonia 2 Norway 1
Estonia 4 Netherlands 2
Estonia 5 Britain 4
Poland 3 Estonia 0
Estonia 3 Denmark 3
Ukraine 3 Estonia 1
Slovenia 3 Estonia 0

They were much much better than Lithuania in the 1990s and now even Lithuania has surpassed them, though I guess it's more a case of Estonia regressing.

[SLAJA]

Is there anyone who knows why Estonian icehockey has declined the last years and what to do about it? :c075:

there are a many reasons,

1. its seen as a Russian sport, just like how football is seen as a black sport and rugby is seen as a white sport in south afrika, (i know this very well because i am a ethnic russian, most estonians think the fact that we have anything to do with hockey is soviet legacy, unlike south of the border where it was really popular all the way back to the 1930's)

1. a) look at roster for 2009 WC estonia team. there is 4 estonians and 18 russians. even though there are 0,9 m estonians, and 0,3 m russians in estonia.

2.like all small nations we know we cannot be good at everything and skii is definetly most important for eesti national pride.

(estonia had 3 gold medals in turin, all in ski which gave us rank 12 out of 81 beating Norway in 13th, which caused national celbration for years, and in salt lake we had 3 medals all in ski.) per capita we are the most sucessful team in the 2002, and 2006 games)

3.We see what has happened to teams like austria, or france and ask whats the point of allways beeing in the bottom, or getting huge blowout scores by russia, canada. Why use teams as a punching bag? not a good feeling for the lower teams.

4.as an ethnic russian, our big russian community cheers for russia, so we dont need a team, and we watch KHL (before superleague) we have channel for that on TV, and i have been with friends to see SKA st petersburg, which is very close by. To change from KHL to estonian league is to big of a drop of level to make it interesting.

5. Russian community is, sadley, becoming smaller as my brothers move to russia, or america, this means even less interest.

6.no media attenetion at all. even when latvia conquered swede in 2009 there was no news stories, and usually alll the baltic states hear about eachothers big upsets.

7.we are the richest, and most educated baltic state, but still half as rich as finland and ice hockey is the most expensive sport in the world, and we dont have money to spare for an unpopular sport.


so we know that hockey will never ever gain popularity in estonia as long as estonians hate soviet legacy (of which i am NOT one my family has been living in estonia since before soviets)

[Oz]

SLAJA, good post.

But you should link the paragraphs 1 and 4 in one bigger and it will help to explain, why ethnic estonians see hockey as a soviet sport. In Latvia you could see a tendency like that our attitude against football. Because ethnic population see it as a disloyalty against respective country.

unlike south of the border where it was really popular all the way back to the 1930's
It isn't entirely true, that hockey has always been popular. There was a considerable decrease in popularity of hockey during the sixties when the Dinamo Riga finished in all-time lowest league positions and team's coach and all playing roster consisted of "third grade" russians. Our hockey could be in as poor condition as estonian, if there wouldn't be a certain coach - Viktor Tikhonov, who turned around teams performances, closely helped by the emergence of local superstar Balderis.

[SLAJA]

SLAJA, good post.

But you should link the paragraphs 1 and 4 in one bigger and it will help to explain, why ethnic estonians see hockey as a soviet sport. In Latvia you could see a tendency like that our attitude against football. Because ethnic population see it as a disloyalty against respective country.


It isn't entirely true, that hockey has always been popular. There was a considerable decrease in popularity of hockey during the sixties when the Dinamo Riga finished in all-time lowest league positions and team's coach and all playing roster consisted of "third grade" russians. Our hockey could be in as poor condition as estonian, if there wouldn't be a certain coach - Viktor Tikhonov, who turned around teams performances, closely helped by the emergence of local superstar Balderis.

interesting.

I have a question about Balderis though, when I look back at soviet rosters of old world championships in 70's, early 80's he is only non russian on teams. Was he considered a traitor to Latvian nation?

[Davide]

There is a rumour about possible partecipation of PSK Narva in next Latvian League, with 5 millinos crowns budget and a new coach...any confirmation?

[Oz]

There is a rumour about possible partecipation of PSK Narva in next Latvian League, with 5 millinos crowns budget and a new coach...any confirmation?

Not a single word about this in Latvian media.

[Viperdan]

3 TEAMS, that would be a fun league,

[DANGER-MAN]

There is a rumour about possible partecipation of PSK Narva in next Latvian League, with 5 millinos crowns budget and a new coach...any confirmation?

I just talked to Christain Adami the goalie for Valk 494 and Coach of the Estonia Womens team. He told me that PSK Narva is attempting to join the Latvian league. I'm not sure if that is the confirmation you are looking for...

[SLAJA]

I just talked to Christain Adami the goalie for Valk 494 and Coach of the Estonia Womens team. He told me that PSK Narva is attempting to join the Latvian league. I'm not sure if that is the confirmation you are looking for...

i am simply a casual fan of home team Narva PSK, but i have heard rumors of this. apparently they are trying to get the entrance fees lower. and imports rules... no quite sure but something to do with money anyway.

[SLAJA]

I don't know if anybody heard this but in the past few weeks players including: Teemu Selanne, Saku Koivu Mikko Koivu, Lauri Korpikoski, Antero Niittymaki, and Petteri Nummelin came to Tallin to a few hockey summer programs.

http://www.icehockey.ee/et/meedia/uudised.html