View Full Version : Project of change in PLH
A few day ago on a meeting in Toruń Zdzisław Igielewicz, president of PZHL, said he would to reform a PLH. Here's the essence of his project:
1. Reduce the number of foreigners from 5 to 3 per team
2. League will be played with 10 teams and after two rounds (game and revange) will be divide
into two groups:
- in the first group will play best six teams,
- in the second group will play four teams from PLH and two best from I Liga. In this
weaker group teams will started rounds with reset of the points. This group will play for
two seats in play-offs
3. In play-off is one big change. Teams from places 1-4 in the table will take the "bonus" - it mean that those teams will need to advance to next round one win less than teams from pleaces 5-8 - in the best of five two wins, in the best of seven need three wins. But this point is to debate.
President of PZHL would make this changes in next season.
Source (http://sport.interia.pl/hokej/plh/news/reforma-ligi-juz-od-wrzesnia,1291438,26)
Alessandro Seren Rosso
18-04-2009, 11:43
2. League will be played with 10 teams and after two rounds will be divine
:c098:
They set the bar quite high! :c032:
Sorry, I made a mistake, there should be divide, I'm going to fix it:x:c075:
You've fixed it, but the opportunity was too good...
2. League will be played with 10 teams and after two rounds will be divineJerzy Christ makes his comeback! :c032:
Today all changes about PHL, which I wrote in #1 post, were confirmed, but PZHL introduced a few more changes:
- if club have foreign coach, this coach have to work with polish assistant. All foreign coaches have to be a at least second class coach.
- in game could play only 3 foreign players. If club design to play foreign goaltender, on ice could be only two foreigners.
- all changes in rosters must be reported to WGiD (Department of games and discipline) PZHL before 20th of December.
All changes in PLH are introduction to reducing the number of teams to 8 in season 2011/12.
yardbird
20-05-2009, 09:07
I find most of the ideas good but I have my doubts about reducing the league to 8 teams. I remember when Poland had an 8 team league and all teams were qualified for the playoffs. That's ridiculous. If they are going down to 8 teams, I do hope that only 4 will make the playoffs and that last team will be relegated. Otherwise ice hockey will stagnate even more.
I also think that it's important to re-create hockey in old strongholds like Warszawa and Łódż.
- in game could play only 3 foreign players. If club design to play foreign goaltender, on ice could be only two foreigners.
Does this mean that only 3 foreigners can be dressed or that only 3 foreigners can be on the ice at any one time? Also, what is the Polish definition of foreigner?
Graham.
Does this mean that only 3 foreigners can be dressed or that only 3 foreigners can be on the ice at any one time? Also, what is the Polish definition of foreigner?
Graham.
Only 3 foreigners could be dressed. It's the biggest problem, because foreign players are too expensive for polish clubs to pay them if they can't play in all games. Now most of polish clubs have signed more than 3 foreign players, and clubs presidents argue that changes in rules are entered too late. It's a reason of conflict between big of them and PZHL. Clubs chiefs believe that reducing the number of foreigners is too fast. They are suggesting reduce to 4 in next season and finally to 3 in season 2010-2011. But President of PZHL, Zdzisław Ingielewicz, doesn't agree with that solution.
And finally, foreigner in PLH is a player outside of Poland without polish citizenship.
I find most of the ideas good but I have my doubts about reducing the league to 8 teams. I remember when Poland had an 8 team league and all teams were qualified for the playoffs. That's ridiculous. If they are going down to 8 teams, I do hope that only 4 will make the playoffs and that last team will be relegated. Otherwise ice hockey will stagnate even more.
I also think that it's important to re-create hockey in old strongholds like Warszawa and Łódż.
About the play-off's I'm completely agree with you.
About re-create hockey in Warszawa and Łódź now is not likely. Reason is very simple. In Poland ice hockey isn't too much popular. More polupar is a football and in next season both of that cities, Warszawa and Łódź, are going to have in Polish Ekstraklasa (The Highest Level) together four teams (Widzew and ŁKS in Łódź, Legia and Polonia in Warszawa), so the better part of money in those cities is going to football. Moreover, in Poland will be Euro 2012, and preparation to this tournament takes next big part of money. It's not the end because more important than hockey are, for example, athletics, tennis, ski jumping, and this sports have a priority. Only in Kraków is strong ice hockey team, but Cracovia is sponsored by Janusz Filipiak, great fan of hockey.
Two questions:
1. "All foreign coaches have to be a at least second class coach." What does this mean?
2. Can you list the 10 teams?
Two questions:
1. "All foreign coaches have to be a at least second class coach." What does this mean?
2. Can you list the 10 teams?
1. It mean that foreign coach have to have at least equivalent of "second class coaching license".
2. PLH in next season: Comarch Cracovia Kraków, GKS Tychy, Wojas Podhale Nowy Targ, Energa Stoczniowiec Gdańsk, Akuna Naprzód Janów, KH Pol-Aqua Zagłębie Sosnowiec, JKH GKS Jastrzębie, TKH Nesta Toruń, Ciarko KH Sanok, TH Unia Oświęcim
yardbird
21-05-2009, 10:55
Only 3 foreigners could be dressed. It's the biggest problem, because foreign players are too expensive for polish clubs to pay them if they can't play in all games. Now most of polish clubs have signed more than 3 foreign players, and clubs presidents argue that changes in rules are entered too late. It's a reason of conflict between big of them and PZHL. Clubs chiefs believe that reducing the number of foreigners is too fast. They are suggesting reduce to 4 in next season and finally to 3 in season 2010-2011. But President of PZHL, Zdzisław Ingielewicz, doesn't agree with that solution.
And finally, foreigner in PLH is a player outside of Poland without polish citizenship.
I think that it's a wise decision to reduce the amount of foreign players. Just look at Germany where the decrease of the standard of the national team is the result of too many foreign players in the league. Reducing the amount of foreign players will increase the standard of Polish hockey in the long run. I do believe that one way to make ice hockey popular and prospering is to have a strong national team. Latvia and Belarus are good examples of that.
And correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Polish ice hockey have a stronger support in the 70:s when Poland had a good national team?
Honestly, I would like to see a "three foreign players" rule in Sweden too. We have too many mediocre foreign players who only cost a lot of money for the clubs while promising junior players are sent down to the second league where they stagnate.
I think that it's a wise decision to reduce the amount of foreign players. Just look at Germany where the decrease of the standard of the national team is the result of too many foreign players in the league.
Yes, but it's hard to say about decrease of standard in Poland (even though this year's 23th place in WC was the worst in history) because the standard is for years very low. What they caled crisis in Germany or Slovakia would be high for Poland. Generally I don't think it will be big difference between league with 3 and 5 foreigners so it may be 3 for me but timing of this decision is awful - when teams started their preparations and for some with more than 3 foreigners under contract. Who will pay for breaking off contracts now? Maybe they should announce it but from the start of 2010-11 season. Not to mention Polish association brought it into action without agreement with clubs as to show that clubs are irrelevant.
I guess I have two points here. First, in a country where your sport is a minority, only the national team is important. It is the only time that those not in the sport's fan base show any interest. As an example, there is no better publicity for Polish ice hockey than to have Poland in the Winter Olympics.
Second is that I think teams often make the mistake of thinking that quality and entertainment is the same thing. Hockey just has to be fun, it doesn't have to rival the NHL in quality. I've seem some really dull games in the NHL, but I've also seen some really entertaining games at my local u14 team, who play in the lowest level in England. This argument is certainly one that has kept the import level high in the UK for many years. If you speak to a long-term hockey fan in the UK, we all remember fondly back to our 3-import days and wish we still had that hockey.
Ultimately, if you are trying to attract new fans, they don't know the difference between good and bad hockey. All they know, and care about, is whether it is fun to watch or not. While I agree that the PZHL's timing is awful, I do applaud them for the decision.
Graham.
I guess I have two points here. First, in a country where your sport is a minority, only the national team is important. It is the only time that those not in the sport's fan base show any interest. As an example, there is no better publicity for Polish ice hockey than to have Poland in the Winter Olympics.
Second is that I think teams often make the mistake of thinking that quality and entertainment is the same thing. Hockey just has to be fun, it doesn't have to rival the NHL in quality. I've seem some really dull games in the NHL, but I've also seen some really entertaining games at my local u14 team, who play in the lowest level in England. This argument is certainly one that has kept the import level high in the UK for many years. If you speak to a long-term hockey fan in the UK, we all remember fondly back to our 3-import days and wish we still had that hockey.
Ultimately, if you are trying to attract new fans, they don't know the difference between good and bad hockey. All they know, and care about, is whether it is fun to watch or not. While I agree that the PZHL's timing is awful, I do applaud them for the decision.
Graham.
And correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Polish ice hockey have a stronger support in the 70:s when Poland had a good national team?
You mean we had good football & ice hockey national team in 70s? You have right but in 70s in Poland had communism system, and that times were very different from the present, a lot of things, including sports, involved with the policy, starting from the fact that sport was largely funded by the national sources. It's very hard to tell about it in a few words, it's very complicated.
And about foreign players, as Snowie wrote, "3 foreign players" rule should be announced in season 2010/2011, but in next season should be "4 foreign players" rule yet.
I guess I have two points here. First, in a country where your sport is a minority, only the national team is important. It is the only time that those not in the sport's fan base show any interest. As an example, there is no better publicity for Polish ice hockey than to have Poland in the Winter Olympics.
Graham.
Yes, but Polish ice hockey is too weak to play even in IHWC Top Division where 16 teams are playing... In Vancouver qualification we lost a tournament in which we were host team, and it was only 2nd qualification phase. Maybe in few years will be better but many things have to be changed, starting with the modernization of the system of training young people and ending with a greater interest in the sponsors.
Absolutely. It's not to say that you are ready now, or that only Olympic qualification is good publicity.
But, certainly in the UK, we have team owners who see the national team as a waste of money. My argument for all the 2nd tier hockey nations and below is that everything you do within your sport should be about creating a national team that can publicise your sport, because ultimately that is the best tool you have to draw new fans into your sport. I've yet to be convinced that any other publicity outside of starting up a new team has a significant impact on the visibility of the sport.
Graham.
Piotr, any info on how many rounds will be played in the regular season before it splits in two halves?
Regular season:
In first phase will be played two rounds (Every team will play 18 games).
In second phase in both groups will be played four rounds (Every team will play 20 Games).
Play-off's:
- championship play-off's: all teams of first group 'A' and two best of group 'B' will set up four pairs, and these will play for will play for championship.
- last four team from poll 'B' and 4 best teams of second level will play two rounds (Every team will play 18 games) for places 9-16.
- teams of second level from places lower than 4 will end the season on second phase.
Thanks a lot. Your article has been published:
http://www.internationalhockey.net/hockey_around_the_world/eastern_europe/poland/3096-format_and_rule_changes_in_the_polish_hockey_leagu e.html
If you want any changes, please let me know
Piotr,
Do these changes apply to just the Ekstraliga or to 1 Liga, too?
Graham.
Changes relate to 1. Liga as well. This new system is very complicated.
Thanks a lot. Your article has been published:
http://www.internationalhockey.net/hockey_around_the_world/eastern_europe/poland/3096-format_and_rule_changes_in_the_polish_hockey_leagu e.html
If you want any changes, please let me know
Thank you Karsten. It's look good to me. If something will change I'll let you know.
Perhaps we can just make a note that related changes will be made in the 1. Liga as well?
Perhaps we can just make a note that related changes will be made in the 1. Liga as well?
Yes, it could be good idea, thank you.
Three president of clubs (Janusz Grycner of Naprzód Janów, Marek Kostecki of Stoczniowiec Gdańsk and Andrzej Podgórski of Podhale Nowy Targ) representing clubs of PLH went today to PZHL asking for the withdrawal of the reform PLH. Clubs have two postulates:
- suspension of a resolution to reform the system of PLH
- restore the limit of five foreigners.
Head of delegation, Janusz Grycner, said the clubs will fight hard about their bussines, but they won't make any drastic steps.
It looks like the clubs want with the help of protest against the reform of PLH win raise the limit of foreigners at least to four.
Zbigniew Ingielewicz, the president of PZHL, promised to give an answer for clubs on next Wednesday after the meeting of PZHL board.
Today at the meeting the board of PZHL didn't change any of their decision made on 19th of May and confirmed new system of PLH. The board confirm the 3 foreigners rule too.
Today hokej.net (http://hokej.net/?c=mdAktualnosci-cmPokazTresc-35-21564-%2Cspan,style%3D%22color%2C,rgb%2C255%2C,204%2C,0% 2C%3B%22%2C%2Cstrong%2C,j.,grycner%2C,,to,fajnie,s ie,bawic,za,czyjes,pieniadze%2C%2Fstrong%2C%2C%2Fs pan%2C%2Cstrong%2C) published an interview with Janusz Grycner, the president of Akuna Naprzód Janów, about changes in PLH. He said that the project of change, especially the date of its entry into force, is ridiculous. He claim, that such changes, which were introduced in the system of PLH should be announced for the year ahead, not few months before beginning of the season. He agreed that PLH have to be reformed, but it can't be done with a loss for clubs playing in PLH, because this kind of reform won't help. He afraid that he may have to withdraw the team due to financial problems, because principal sponsor can no longer finance if the club will not honor the agreement. It's possible, because of the less number of matches in regular season than it was in the contract. He said that at least six another clubs agree with these arguments (Cracovia, Unia Oświęcim, Zagłębie Sosnowiec, KH Sanok, JKH Jastrzębie and Podhale). He said that the clubs will meet soon to establish a common position and make a decision what to do with this case.
In addition to the reform has touched on few other important issues related to financial:
- first thing is the large increase in fees for a license to play in PLH and to report any new players to the teams,
- second thing is financing players' equipment and insurance at the time of their playing for national team. Now the cost is borne by the clubs, but these things should be financed by PZHL.
Today representatives of polish club send a letter to president of PZHL Zbigniew Ingielewicz after their yesterday's meeting in Toruń. Here is the main postulates of clubs:
1. Clubs don't accepted the decisions made by PZHL on 15th of May 2009 and related to the reorganization of PLH in season 2009/2010 and change the numbers of foreign players from five to three
2. Clubs don't accepted the regulations and resolutions made by PZHL on 16th of June 2009:
- decisions for all playing levels
- decisions about new disciplinary rules
- regulations of players affiliation to clubs and revisions of this affiliation (transfers fee and application to play fee)
- resolution concerning the fees the clubs for PZHL (disciplinary fee, application fee, licence fee etc.)
- resolution concerning the coaching licence
Clubs argue that the above provisions are full of errors of substance, which disrupt League for their use. Clubs wrote too, that the decisions was made without morality both in terms of time to implement them in its implementation, as well as the treatment of clubs, when determining the level of the fees.
In case of number of foreigners clubs argues, the new rules are in conflict with labor law in European Union.
Therefore, Clubs are absolutely in favor of the continuation of the rules from the season 2008/2009 in season 2009/2010.
Clubs offer to call the committee, which will fix broken rules. To the financial rules clubs want to investigate the merits of raising the fees by the Audit Committee of PZHL.
This letter was signed by representatives of 8 PLH clubs present at the meeting (on the meeting wasn's any representatives of Stoczniowiec Gdańsk and TKH Toruń), but manager of GKS Tychy supported the PZHL Board. The decisions was made by majority of votes.
This letter was signed by representatives of 8 PLH clubs present at the meeting (on the meeting wasn's any representatives of Stoczniowiec Gdańsk and TKH Toruń), but manager of GKS Tychy supported the PZHL Board. The decisions was made by majority of votes.
But only as far as it goes with league format. He still supports other clubs with rest of the statement. And decisions were made by common agreement of these present at meeting, not by majority. Sentence about majority in official statement concerns meeting in Toruń during Div I WC, where decisions of new league format were made, not yesterday's (btw demanding return to former structure is a little bit funny remembering majority of clubs were pro league format changes in April).
But only as far as it goes with league format. He still supports other clubs with rest of the statement. And decisions were made by common agreement of these present at meeting, not by majority. Sentence about majority in official statement concerns meeting in Toruń during Div I WC, where decisions of new league format were made, not yesterday's (btw demanding return to former structure is a little bit funny remembering majority of clubs were pro league format changes in April).
Yes... but it is Poland... Here a last decision isn't exacly last decision because everythink can be changed.
In the voting case, I wrote with mistake, because I read it incorrect.:c212:
Yesterday was planned a meeting between President of PZHL and representatives of PLH clubs. They have to talk about changes made in the PLH by decisions of 15 of May and 15 of June. Zbigniew Ingielewicz, President od PLH, said, that he had no time on Monday and he postponed the meeting on Friday.
He send too a letters to presidents of PLH clubs, in which he wrote he is going to resignation from being president of PZHL if the presidents of clubs really want it.
If this happens, PLH probably will started according to the rules of the previous season.
Few days ago polish clubs sent to PZHL a letter, in which they support their negative opinion about the changes in PLH (fees, project of playing new season and 3 foregners rule). They referred to a proposal for the resignation of the President of PZHL - they wrote, that proposal should go from the President Ingielewicz. Furthermore clubs want to know, if with resignation of president will be equivalent to his resignation from being a member of the PZHL Board and a member of PKOl, and also if the rest of the board will resign with him.
It looks like we have the end of polish hockey war between PZHL and clubs. Today on meeting the PZHL board made some decision, which should end the conflict between both sides. So, here is the most important decision:
- the format of regular season will the same as in project of change with one change: second round will have 6 rounds instead of 4. It means that every team will play in regular season 48 games (18 in 1st stage and 30 in second stage)
- in next season the number of foreign players, which can be dressed, will be 4. The number of foreigners will be reduced to 3 in season 2010/11.
- the table of fees (I wrote about it here (http://www.internationalhockey.net/forums/showthread.php?p=153013#post153013)) will be introduced in next season. In season 2009/10 some fees will be changed: the fee for playing in PLH was reduced from 25 000 PLN to 15 000 PLN, the fee for plaing in 1. Liga was reduced from 10000 PLN to 5 000 PLN, payment may be in two installments (first have to be pay before 15 August, second before 30 October). The two teams, which will join PLH after first stage have to pay 5000 PLN before beginning of second stage. The fees for licence were reduced from 5000 PLN to 2000 PLN for PLH teams and form 2000 PLN to 800 PLN for 1. Liga teams.
Finally:c239: And I hope there will be any problems like that in the future. :c150:
Great to hear it´s been sorted out :c239:
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